Bruce Burke, Founder of Gulf Bay Consulting, talks with me about his upcoming Social Mobile Payments Conference. Bruce has created a conference about deconstructing the forces that are changing the way consumers interact, live and shop. He shares interesting anecdotes about successes and misses in these markets and I offer my list of things I hope people learn from his conference.
Links referenced in the show:
The music in the show, Have Mercy — Big Walter Horton, was provided by Mevio’s Music Alley.
Transcription
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Bruce 00:00:21 Hi. I’m Bruce Burke and I’m organizing the Social Mobile Payments Conference and Exhibition. It’s going to be held April 11th and 12th at the World Center Marriott Resort and Convention Center in Orlando, Florida. The event’s focused on the convergence of social media coupled with mobile connectivity and payments technology.
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Ryan 00:00:45 All right. So I guess anybody who’s doing either social or mobile would like to get paid. So I think that tying the third one together with the first two make sense, but where do you see social and mobile coming into it? Are you purposefully going for a really broad topic or is there some way that this is actually scoped tighter than maybe is obvious to someone just hearing those three words?
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Bruce 00:01:11
Well, we look at the ecosystem that’s forming and it’s burgeoning pretty quick. If you look out there in some of the new things that are coming out like Zaarly and PayNearMe and that sort of thing, they’re very social programs that are using payments. So the mobile aspect of it is just the fact that everybody and their brother now has, you know, an iPhone or an Android or a Windows Phone and they’re running around with this broadband-connected device in their pocket and that is a conduit that’s connecting both the social networks and the payment networks through the mobile device.
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Ryan 00:01:52
Okay. So you’re doing a conference. This is your first conference, right?
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Bruce 00:01:56
Absolutely.
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Ryan 00:01:57
Why are you doing a conference?
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Bruce 00:01:59
I am doing a conference because I went to a lot of different events over the course of the last two or three years. I went to the GSMA Mobile Money Summit. I went as a reporter. I write a blog for Mobile Payments Today. And I went as a reporter and during the course of the event I went to a reporters’ round table luncheon with most of the luminaries from the event that were speaking. There was Bill Gajda from the Global Mobile Head of Visa, there was Thierry from Orange, there was Adam Kerr from Ericksson, there was Claire from Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and Dickson Chu from Citi. And, you know, a lot of the big heads of big companies that were speaking at the event were at this luncheon. And it was a small conference room with 25 people in it. And I had the opportunity to question all these giants of the industry. You know, especially the new Princes of Mobile Money, I call them. And I asked them about something that I had just kind of come into in the previous week. I asked them, I said, “What do you think about the convergence of social media, mobile connectivity, and payments technology?” And there had been a couple of questions posed to them prior to that that they kind of meandered through and hobbled together some answers and, you know, kind of, you know, came up with an answer for these questions. But when I asked them about, “What do you think about the convergence of these three aspects,” they all sat up straight in their chairs, they all straightened their ties, and their eyes, they all lit up like Christmas trees. And they were very excited and very inspired it seemed by the question. And it was something they all really grabbed a hold of and they all wanted to answer and seemed really enthused about the idea. And since then, everyone that I have talked to and mentioned it to seemed to kind of get it right away and they think it’s new and fresh and innovative. They’re -- don’t get me wrong. Mobile money; there’s 500 conferences throughout the year now, you know. But the idea that the social aspect of it; nobody else is doing that. And I think that’s a big part that a lot of people have missed.
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Ryan 00:04:22
So when you talk about, you know, like, social payments you’re not talking about whuffie here, right? I think it’s probably worth talking about. What is it that you mean, like, if you’re talking about social payments? You’re talking about just, basically, the idea of commerce in a social setting, right? Or are you talking about sharing your transactions? Like, you know, it’s kind of funny because you put those words together and it could mean, easily, at least one of three things to me just off the top of my head.
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Bruce 00:04:49
And it can mean a lot more things to a lot of different people. I’ve seen recently where Cisco’s coined the term of a mashop. And, you know, the idea of a mashup and a shop all in one.
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Ryan 00:05:03
These portmanteaus have to stop.
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Bruce 00:05:07
They talk about bringing the Internet into the retail location and bringing the retail location into the Internet simultaneously. And, you know, using the network-centric connection, you know, between the two. But the idea of doing things like shopkick where you, you know, start your mobile app and you walk into the store and there’s a box in the store that emanates a noise that your app picks up on your mobile phone (microphone actually picks up on) and it checks you in automatically. There’s no need for GPS or anything else. You’re not sharing it public so there’s no, you know, “I’m at so-and-so and please come rob my house,” or anything like that. You’re sharing it only with the retail location that you’re walking into and you get rewarded for just walking into the retail store. You get shopkick bucks just for walking in the door. And then they want you to further engage with the store by walking around with the shopkick app. And they give you a list of different items that are on special and they want you to go around and scan the barcodes of those apps. You know, pick up the product, hold it in your hand, scan the barcode of that app to one, say that you’re doing it and you get points for doing it. And with the hopes that, you know, once you have it in your hand you’ll put it in your basket and take it to the checkout.
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Ryan 00:06:27
Oh, that’s funny. Because when I do that at a bookstore I feel naughty. Seems like a lot of stores are more leery about you using some sort of technology because I think odds are they know that they’re probably not the best price out there and, you know, you’re probably shopping around. So it’s interesting that some fronts are actually encouraging you to use technology, try to get user reviews. Like, all the good stuff that actually helps me make a purchase, right? I want to see if people actually like this thing.
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Bruce 00:06:57
You know, some stores are now looking at, you know, if you’re the right kind of shopper, you know, either handing you some kind of a tablet device so when you’re walking around the store, rather than their salesperson, you know, who’s usually not available, all you have to do is enter either, you know, either scan a SKU that’s on the shelf or, you know, scan a barcode and all the information about the appliance that you’re looking at or the box that you’re seeing. You know, rather than pulling the box off the shelf and having to turn it on four sides to see what’s included, you know, you can just do that via the tablet. And they can actually use that application to find who’s the lowest price around you and then beat that price. So, you know, it’s one thing for the consumer to go in with their smartphone and use ShopSavvy to, you know, go into Best Buy and use it as their Amazon showcase, but it’s another thing for the store to kind of turn the tables and say, “Well, hey, we now know what all the prices are and, you know, we’re going to beat that price. We’ll sell it to you at the lowest price. We’ll guarantee our price is the lowest because we’re going to compare it for you. You don’t have to go and compare it. We’ll do it for you.”
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Ryan 00:08:13
That’s good. I mean, I hope that a lot of retailers are actually trying to look that up because I think, for the most part, they seem a bit old-fashioned. Even the ones that kind of tout themselves as being more forward-thinking. There’s still this idea that the power from a shopping experience is sort of from them having all the information and you having as little as they can give you, right? Maybe giving you the appearance (giving you the feeling) like you have more information but, for the most part, I mean, they’re not going to give you the competitors’ ads, right? Like, that kind of thing. If you bring it in they’ll honor it but…
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Bruce 00:08:47
Yeah. It’s kind of the idea that one of the insurance companies, and I don’t remember which one it is, that, you know, it was the idea was you went on and they would give you a competitor’s quote based on, you know, your information and that sort of thing. And, you know, LendingTree: “When banks compete, you win.” You know, all that kind of stuff. I think that idea of that a lot of Web businesses used to have or touted; I think the retailers should be touting that now. And sometimes it’s not just that you’re selling on price, you know. A lot of consumers buy on price, but a lot of consumers buy on service too, you know. I mean, you know, if you can’t beat them on price maybe you can include some value-added services from within the store. Maybe, you know, some concierge services. You know, some people buy on quality rather than price and, you know, if the store can add quality and, you know, sometimes price doesn’t matter.
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Ryan 00:09:47
Yeah. No, I can vouch for that in my own experience because I think less than, you know, shopping online, beating prices, I think the kind of customer services experiences that I’ve been getting in brick-and-mortar stores has been more the reason that I am less inclined to go to them if I can avoid it, right? Like, for the most part, now I just go to the grocery store because, well, you know, I’m not going to have my cheese mail-ordered. But if it’s some sort of, you know, electronics books, media, anything like that, like, I usually just go online because I feel like the quality of service that you get is just lower every time. Which seems interesting because, like, when you talk about someone using some sort of device as your concierge, right, that seems like a slippery slope leading to, wait. “If I’m just going to use my phone to do the shopping anyway, why do I have to travel all the way down to this brick-and-mortar store just to pull out my phone and shop, right?” Like, that seems tricky.
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Bruce 00:10:45
Well, it is and it isn’t. If, you know, a lot of people go out and shop and this is a big part of the social-mobile payments. A lot of people go out and shop not necessarily for the act of shopping but more for the act of socialism (or to be social).
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Ryan 00:11:04
Right.
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Bruce 00:11:05
You know, that’s kind of the reason malls were created. They’re kind of a social atmosphere for shopping, you know. It’s kind of a mix of both, you know. Because, you know, you stop at the food court and eat or, you know, maybe you meet your friends there to go to a movie or, you know, during certain holidays like Halloween and that sort of thing, in order for the children to be safe a lot of the malls now have trick-or-treat at the mall. So, you know, the kids aren’t going door-to-door to a stranger’s house and the creepy old man down the street’s house. They’re going to a friendly retailer and getting their candy there and they’re in a safe environment that everybody knows and trusts and is well lit and, you know, all that sort of thing.
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Ryan 00:11:52
That removes everything interesting about Halloween.
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Bruce 00:11:57
Yes, it is. Well, you’re in South Florida. That makes it even more interesting down there. We’re a little more tame up here in Pinellas County; that’s why I moved back home.
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Ryan 00:12:10
So I guess the other thing that comes to mind thinking about, you know, a conference focused on social: it just seems like isn’t everything social now? Like, I guess what’s the angle that you focus on? Is it just about, like, how most things are and if you’re not you’re doing it wrong? Or is there a certain theme around the way social because, I mean, it’s pretty easy to read, like, oh, this is a conference about social -- it could be anything at this point because, I mean, it’s all ball bearings these days. What isn’t social?
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Bruce 00:12:42
Exactly. And to not define our conference. As it actually hasn’t occurred yet, we’re not certain as to what it’s actually going to become.
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Ryan 00:12:55
Okay.
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Bruce 00:12:57
That being said, you know, I talk about the convergence or because it’s three aspects I call it the triangulation of, you know -- I think of that triangle as, like, the same thing as a sweet spot on a tennis racket. If you have social and payments, that’s great. If you have social and mobile, that’s good. If you have payments and mobile, that’s good. But the combination of all three of those elements. When you can mash up all three of those elements -- because, usually, a mash up -- you know, in the past, companies used to call them joint ventures, you know? And when you had a mash up of, say, MasterCard and a cellular company, you know, and they put those two things together as a joint venture, that was pretty powerful. But that added element of bringing in a social media element like a Facebook or a Twitter or a LinkedIn or a Foursquare or one of the other, you know, popular things and, you know, go international and it explodes, you know. Bringing in a joint venture as not just two but three aspects or three companies, that adds an extra dimension to it (one), but it also makes it unilateral, you know; where it’s the same on all sides. I think of a triangle being, you know -- I know there’s right angle triangles and left angle triangles, but most people think of a triangle as the basic shape we saw as a child, which was three equal sides. And I think adding in that equal side of the social media and using that to broadcast it or recommend it or bring your network into it adds another dimension way beyond just two companies doing business together to form a plan to push more business, you know. Bringing in the social element kind of engages the consumer. It also empowers the consumer. I mean, you know, I don’t know how much you read, but I read a lot about there was a thing in one of Papa John’s pizza’s guys, you know, made a derogatory comment about a customer on one of the receipts and that was put out on Facebook and that was immediately taken care of by Papa John’s headquarters. There are 6,000 examples like that of consumers who have Tweeted or Facebooked or said something about a company and the company, you know, moved immediately to correct that and fix it. You know, we’re working with Citi to try and bring Citi’s recently hired Frank Eliason who is with Comcast Cares. You know, he was a customer service rep at Comcast who started using Twitter to alleviate some of the burden of getting to a customer service rep, you know? And Citi’s now hired him to socialize Citi. And we’re working with Citi to try and bring Frank to the event to talk about, you know, how a bank can use social media to engage customers and how they can make a bank warm and fuzzy rather than a cold, hard, stone institution that it’s thought of, you know, on a day-to-day basis, you know? That being said, you know, banks were always thought of as, you know, this is a building that has a secure vault in it. So I should take my money there and put it there because it’s much safer there than in my house.
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Ryan 00:16:31
Yeah. That makes me think of also the idea maybe one size doesn’t fit all for everyone, right? Like, I don’t know that I want to hang out with my bank, right? Like, I don’t know that I want my bank telling me Chuck Norris jokes. Does that work, I mean, for everybody do you think or is it that everyone kind of has to find their own path?
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Bruce 00:16:54
Well, everybody has to find their own path but, you know, a lot of people rely on their family and their friends and their associates that they work with, you know, for recommendations, you know. “Hey, you know, we’re going out. You know, where do you go to eat? Hey, we’re going to do this? You know, where do you bank? Where do you shop? Where do you eat? Where do you buy your clothes? Where do you vacation? Where do you,” you know. A lot of that information, things that you buy and things that you do and things that you interact with, are recommendations by your friends on your network. And, you know, if you get a recommendation from your bank, you know, along with your monthly statement, you know, of a vacation place that you can buy through your bank, you might be a little more inclined to do it. I’m not saying that your bank tells you Chuck Norris jokes, but your bank might be able to recommend a, you know, a good loan on a home.
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Ryan 00:18:00
Right.
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Bruce 00:18:00
Or your bank might be able to recommend a trusted financial advisor.
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Ryan 00:18:06
Yeah. Well, I mean I was of course being a little flippant, but mainly where I was going with that was it seems like with social there’s two (it seems to me) very different things; like, the very different angles. And it’s tough because I think people kind of muddy the water when they don’t do enough homework on them. And it’s there’s this idea of, you know, kind of, like, being everybody’s buddy. And that works great for, like, startups. But then -- and people see how well that kind of transaction works. And then when bigger companies try to sort of, you know, replicate that it just doesn’t work, right? Whereas it’s not to say that big companies shouldn’t try to be where the people are, but I think they just need to embrace the fact that (and you said it right there) they need to enable people to be able to have conversations about them and be worth talking about, right, but not necessarily kind of be everybody’s buddy, right, because it just doesn’t work for everyone.
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Bruce 00:19:01
I think a lot of companies miss the mark. I think a lot of companies go, “Oh, well, you know, Facebook’s all the rage so we’re going to go put up a Facebook page.”
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Ryan 00:19:09
Right.
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Bruce 00:19:09
And their end all to be all is, “We’re now social because we set up a Facebook page and now people can like us.”
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Ryan 00:19:17
Right.
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Bruce 00:19:17
And so the people go and they like them and that’s it and that’s the end of it.
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Ryan 00:19:21
Right.
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Bruce 00:19:21
And there’s no engagement, there’s no conversation, there’s, you know, there’s no interaction. And, you know, the Twitter thing (the Comcast Cares thing, going back to that), that was, you know, set up specifically to enhance customer service.
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Ryan 00:19:38
Yeah.
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Bruce 00:19:38
And it can if it’s set up correctly and if it’s followed through. I mean, it’s one thing to set up a customer service center on Twitter and, you now, put one guy manning it, but it’s another thing to have multiple reps on customer service on Twitter. So you got ComcastTom, ComcastJulie, ComcastSharon, ComcastPete, you know. And really have the reps have the ability to use that and, you know, I mean, you’ve called companies, I’ve called companies and you go to get customer service and you dial and you’re in a queue and you’re waiting in line and you’ve got to go through a menu and you’ve got to do this and you’ve got to do that and it’s 20/25 minutes before you actually ever get to a rep. Well, Twitter’s pretty instant. You ping ComcastPete and if he’s paying attention or on the clock, you know, he’s on, you know. That being said, a lot of companies are setting up customer care on Twitter, but they’re only manning it during office hours and I think that’s a big mistake. If you’re going to have a social media presence, you need to have it manned around the clock because the Internet and social media doesn’t stop after 5 PM Eastern Standard Time.
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Ryan 00:20:57
So here’s -- if I had a wish list for conferences like yours (like, the kind of topics that they covered), it would be something along the lines of, like, that strategy for businesses and kind of getting them a little bit smarter because I think that there’s this uncanny valley of using social for marketing that people kind of fail on and it almost bites them, right. Like, it’s even worse than if they hadn’t been on there. Because I’ve had interactions with people. Like, I’ll just be on Twitter complaining about something because that’s what it’s for. I’m not looking for a solution. I’m on there complaining about a problem and then a company comes up and says, “Hey, you know, let me fix that for you.” I’m like, “Oh, wow. I wasn’t really expecting that. I was just kind of belly-aching. Okay, sure. Let’s fix that.” And they’re like, “Okay. Follow me.” “Okay, I guess I’ll follow you.” And then after I follow them, they follow me and then they direct message me the 800 number. Like, really? I already Googled that. Like, I know your phone number. Like, where I feel like the purpose of that transaction was to diffuse the situation and kind of if anyone were to look at my feed they would know that my complaining terminated with an interaction with them even though it didn’t actually fix anything. And me, as a customer, not feeling any better about this than I did beforehand, right, but it kind of looks that way from the outside.
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Bruce 00:22:17
Yeah. You know, one of the reasons we chose the venue we did, this World Center Marriott, kind of a unique story. I went there with my wife probably almost four years ago now. We were going to the Epcot Food And Wine Festival for her birthday and we were staying at Disney and we were out at the pool one day. And I had just gotten on Twitter. I’m talking this is almost four years ago now and I had just gotten on Twitter. I had -- before I even had an Android, I had a Blackberry 8310. It had a little less than one-megapixel camera I think in it. And we were laying out by the pool. And they’ve got a nice pool with a waterfall and a lazy river and all this stuff in it. And, you know, we were laying out by this pool and I snapped a picture of it and I just uploaded it to Twitter. I think I had been on Twitter all of a week. I think I had maybe twelve followers and, you know, really didn’t understand it that well or what it was or anything else. So I just upload a picture, I said, “Hey, we’re hanging out at the World Center Marriott.” I didn’t @Marriott, I didn’t @World Center, I didn’t even know that, you know…
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Ryan 00:23:25
The way it should be.
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Bruce 00:23:26
Yeah. No hash tags, no nothing, right. And I just, you know, “Hey, we’re hanging out and this is a cool pool and, you know, we’re enjoying ourselves,” right? So just went throughout the day there and we got dressed late, you know, went up, cleaned up, went out to dinner later. And we came back later that night after dinner and we came back to the room and in the room was a plate of chocolate covered strawberries with a card signed by everybody from the front desk and that was their Twitter presence then. It was @The Front Desk was their Twitter presence then. And everybody had signed it. And so they went to the trouble of one: fielding my Tweet off of Twitter, you know, and looking for people that were talking about Marriott. Two: they went to find out who I was. Then they found what room I was in. Then they, you know, put together, you know, or went to the kitchen and got the chocolate covered strawberries and then had everybody sign a card and then took it up to the room, you know? And that right there set my level of expectations for what companies should be doing on Twitter in relation to their customers.
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Ryan 00:24:38
Yeah and that’s great. That’s a really good example of how it can be because it’s just an act of generosity, right? Like, you said something that was just “I’m enjoying myself.” And then they went to just up their game to make you enjoy yourself more, right? And what’s the return for them? You said that it was four years ago and here we are still talking about that one little thing. What’s a plate of strawberries cost them, right? Like, a buck?
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Bruce 00:25:01
Yeah.
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Ryan 00:25:03
That’s, I mean, it’s awesome, right? You can’t, I mean, think about how that relates to, you know, buying airtime of a commercial or something.
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Bruce 00:25:11
For them it’s fantastic. And the outcropping of that was when I was exploring venues for the event I actually mentioned that story to one of the representatives I was talking to and she says, “Oh, well that’s great,” she said, you know. And then she brought me different materials concerning the venue and, you know, the food that was available for catering and all that sort of thing. And in this packet she had a story. It was a reprint of a Wall Street Journal article that had been written around this World Center Marriott about how I wasn’t unique. They have done this for dozens. There was a writer that was there for one of the Blackberry conventions. And apparently he got a room that overlooked the rooftop with the air conditioners. We’ve all gotten that view in the hotels, right? And he Tweeted “I hate my room.” Bing bang boom, knock on the door, “Hi, sir. We’d like you to move to a pool view,” you know? Another one Tweeted, “I sure wish they served Mountain Dew here.” You know, not at the same convention but another one. You know, it was another example that they gave. You know, “There’s no Mountain Dew here at the hotel and I love Mountain Dew.” And, you know, knock knock knock. “Hi, sir. Here’s a six-pack of Mountain Dew for you, on ice, ready to go,” you know. And, you know, that kind of listening to your customer and providing that -- and like you said, how much did it cost them to move him from, you know, a room to a pool-view room? I mean, I’m sure he was willing to pack up and roll, you know. And how much for a six-pack of Mountain Dew down the street at the 7-11? It’s probably $2.75 or whatever, you know. So it’s not a lot of money and, you know, if it makes your customer happy. Sometimes just the little extra things, you know, will put somebody on a brand for life, you know?
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Ryan 00:27:02
Yeah. Well, hey, I think that’s a fantastic note to end off on. I think that the big thing is about social that people oftentimes confuse is it’s not really, you know, what kind of clever things that you can say, but it’s, you know, for a lot of companies it’s more about how do you make yourself worth being talked about, right?
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Bruce 00:27:20
And how do you get reoccurring payments through those customers that, you know, really like you not just “like” you, you know?
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Ryan 00:27:29
Right. The idea of a customer for life, which really it would be great if people could double down on the efforts of that. So your conference is April 11th?
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Bruce 00:27:41
April 11th and 12th. And we’re -- right now we’re looking at having a golf tournament the day before and doing the golf tournament as a fund raiser for a charity which we are just now looking into, but people might want to take part in that also.
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Ryan 00:27:57
Cool. So tickets, sponsorship; all still available if someone wants to participate?
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Bruce 00:28:03
We’re still actively looking for some sponsors. We’re looking for sponsors for a number of different things. We have a whole group that handles that. I don’t deal with that so I have a whole group that deals with that. But if they’ll contact us through the Web, we’ll be happy to help them with that. We have some exhibit space still available. And right now we have a giveaway going with our tickets. People can register online using the special promotion code “fire” and one out of ten of the next 100 tickets sold will win a Kindle Fire. So we’re giving away ten Kindle Fires within the next 100 registrants.
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Ryan 00:28:44
All right. And I’ll link all that up in the show notes so they can check that out if they forget any of that.
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Bruce 00:28:50
I appreciate it. I appreciate it.
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Ryan 00:28:52
Sure. No problem. So, you know, one thing. Just one last thing so listeners can understand. A lot of times with these conferences it’s either focused more about how can established businesses not be disrupted or how are people disrupting, right? So I guess that’s the thing. Is there a focus between those two? If so, what is really, like, your target audience for people to attend?
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Bruce 00:29:18
We’ve actually divided the conference into two separate tracks. That being said, everybody will meet together for one keynote, but we’re separated into two tracks. And the two tracks we’ve called Innovators and Incumbents. And the incumbents will be your banks and your Telcos and your, you know, your Ciscos, your old iron kind of companies. And then your innovators will be your Zarlees and your ShopSavvys and your, you know, PayNearMes and all that sort of thing that are coming. And I tend to think that when we separate those two tracks, I think all the innovators will be over watching the incumbents and I think all the incumbents in the audience will be all watching the innovators.
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Ryan 00:30:05
Know your enemy.
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Bruce 00:30:08
Well, the way I look at it is innovators innovates and incumbents acquire. So I think it’s not so much your enemies but know, you know, who’s coming up and, you know, what’s hot and what’s next and, you know, what should we be aware of in the marketplace.
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Ryan 00:30:26
I like the way that you phrase that. It isn’t necessarily, you know, like, an us versus them kind of mentality. It’s two different kinds of problem solving and there’s plenty to be learned from both. And I like that you’ve got a conference that really is, you know, catering to both because that’s important.
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Bruce 00:30:41
Yeah. We’re actually doing a startup showcase with a local subsidiary of the Techstars Network which is a nationwide network of incubators. There’s a local incubator here in Tampa Bay that’s pretty recent. It’s called Gazelle Lab and now they’re opening a second Gazelle Lab over in Orlando where we’re having the event. But they just had their first cadre of finalists. And we chose three of the finalists and we’re going to showcase those finalists in a startup spotlight during the event and try and make people aware of some of the new innovation that’s going on. Not just the, you know, established innovators that have made it out into the press circles and that sort of thing, but just some of those guys who are bootstrapping it or are on a shoestring budget that are really just, just getting started and, you know, are doing some innovative things themselves without being the VC-funded, you know, startup.
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Ryan 00:31:40
Very cool. Yeah. So everybody ought to check out, you know, SocialMobilePayments.com and I’ll have that in the show notes. Bruce, thanks a lot for your time.
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Bruce 00:31:48
Thank you, Ryan. I appreciate all your help.