Chad Miller

Mar 28 2012

Chad Miller, Sr Manager of Database Administration at Raymond James, shares his experience helping others bootstrap conferences targeting IT professionals. Chad and others were frustrated that all the existing events were too Developer centric, so they started ITProCamp. We go on to compare and contrast challenges of creating monthly events and annual events.

Links referenced in the show:

The music in the show, Have Mercy — Big Walter Horton, was provided by Mevio’s Music Alley.


  1. Chad 00:00:19

    So my name is Chad Miller. I’m a Senior Manager of Database Administration at Raymond James Financial in St. Petersburg, Florida. Today I want to talk about some of the things I do outside of work. And one of the things I do is I’m involved with something called IT Pro Camps. And what IT Pro Camps are is they’re free one-day events similar to Code Camps, but where they’re set up to serve the needs of IT pros. And this is really an area that hasn’t been served very well, I think, in the past. We’ve had a lot of events that focus on developers but nothing really so much on IT pros. So this is something that we started in the last twelve months and that’s something I’d like to kind of delve into a little bit more and talk about today.

  2. Ryan 00:01:01

    This is very cool. So I think it’s interesting that you come at it from, you know, "This other thing exists but it isn’t right so we made something better". Like, that is always something that I -- well, not necessarily better. I’m not, you know, but more appropriate for you, right?

  3. Chad 00:01:16

    Right. But the nice thing about it is though that the guys that have already done this, like, the guys that have been doing Code Camps and Bar Camps and SQL Saturdays and SharePoint Saturdays, they’re more than willing to share their ideas and you borrow their ideas and just turn it into something a little bit different. So it’s not like we’re having to blaze new ground on a lot of this stuff.

  4. Ryan 00:01:32

    Right. So the idea is not completely different. It’s just you want to focus the content.

  5. Chad 00:01:37

    Exactly. And I think, you know, back to I think the need. You know, I look at an IT staff like where I work. We’ve got roughly 900 people in IT. And of those 900 people, 200 people are developers. So that means there’s 700 people that are not developers, right?

  6. Ryan 00:01:55


  7. Chad 00:01:56

    And a lot of those people are IT pros. So IT pros make up a larger portion of the IT staff at these bigger companies. And I think for a long period of time we just haven’t done enough to cater events towards their needs. You think about something like standing up and configuring Active Directory. I mean, it’s a complex topic and the people that know that very well, well, you know, they’re IT pros. And I think they appreciate the opportunity to go to an event and listen to a one-hour or one-hour-and-a-half session about how to do that.

  8. Ryan 00:02:30

    So let’s take a second just in case somebody’s not familiar with this idea of an IT pro. I think that oftentimes it kind of gets reduced to, like, “Oh, IT pros. Oh, yeah, that’s the DBAs,” right? So who else is in this group so that they’re represented as well?

  9. Chad 00:02:47

    Well, you know, it’s a mixture of folks. Like, I also have a usergroup (The Tampa PowerShell Usergroup) and we’ve got some folks that are concentrated on Active Directory, we’ve got some folks that do a little bit of SharePoint. One of the guys that I work with, Jason Hofferle, he’s actually on a workstation…he does a lot of workstation support for, you know, thousands and thousands of desktops. So he does presentations on PowerShell and how he leverages PowerShell to do that type of work. So I guess it’s kind of a mixed bag, you know. We get a few DBAs in there too. You know, it’s basically anybody you can think of that’s not a developer and maybe not a business analyst either and they specialize in different technologies, I guess.

  10. Ryan 00:03:27

    So one thing that you talked about that I think is interesting to circle back to, you said Code Camp exists but it doesn’t cater to your group. But it’s not like there’s a body that created Code Camp, right? It’s largely developers made this event and they made it for themselves. So you’re looking at it from the other side saying, “I want to make an event and I want to make it for me,” right?

  11. Chad 00:03:48

    In a way. You know, I think if you look at Code Camps, you know, they kind of originated out of usergroups, right? So usergroups will just say, “Well, you know, we’ve got this usergroup and we meet on a regular basis, but we’d like to run a once-a-year, larger event that we can have. It’s a full-day event, we can draw in more speakers, and kind of do something like that.” The hard part, I think, with IT pros is there really isn’t a strong usergroup community for IT pros.

  12. Ryan 00:04:12


  13. Chad 00:04:13

    And I don’t know why that is, but if you think about it there’s tons of usergroups that focus on .NET but on the IT pro side there really hasn’t been. So we’ve had to kind of come at it from a different angle. Instead of originating directly from a usergroup into having these once-a-year events we thought, well, let’s take this concept of having these once-a-year events to different cities around first in Florida (that’s what we’ve been concentrating on, for the most part, now) and kind of run the bigger events, even though these cities don’t have a typical usergroup that meet on a regular basis. So I guess it’s a little bit different and it’s a little bit more challenging in that way because you don’t have a strong usergroup community to build on sometimes. And, you know, you’ve got to kind of do more to run these events in the different cities.

  14. Ryan 00:05:02

    So I guess one conclusion that I would jump to, which I’m sure you can shoot down. But if these events don’t exist, like, these usergroups don’t exist, doesn’t that imply that there’s not interest?

  15. Chad 00:05:14

    I think if we look at the attendance numbers we see the interest, right? And we look at the feedback from the attendees, which is really the reason you put these events together. Because the folks that are volunteering their time and myself and everybody else that works on it, we do it because we enjoy doing these types of things. And what we really enjoy is hearing feedback from attendees like, “This is a great event. This was the only event that I’m going to be able to attend this year because, you know, I work for a small company. I’m not going to be able to go to something like TechEd or anything like that.” So I think that the attendance numbers show that it’s been well received. You know, you look at our South Florida event; I think we reached 175 attendees. And for a first-year event that’s pretty good. And I think we’ll even do better as we get the word out because it’s such a new concept that a lot of people hadn’t heard about it. And next year I think we’ll build on that. So I think, you know, based upon the feedback we’ve received and the attendance numbers it seems to be very well received.

  16. Ryan 00:06:12

    Excellent. Then it’s good that you didn’t jump to that same kind of conclusion, right? Like, you just threw it out there and you saw if it worked. Because you could see why it might be easy to jump to that conclusion. So now the problem’s harder, right? This is a harder problem to solve. People are interested but not doing it. What does that mean? How do you fix that?

  17. Chad 00:06:30

    Well, it’s like you’ve got to do something to kind of light a fire, right? You’ve got to get it started. And as you do that you kind of grow the network of people that are working on it. So when we started the first event, we ran the first event in March 2011 in Tampa, and it was Blain Barton who’s a Microsoft Technical Evangelist and myself, we ran the first event. And then we started building on it. We went to South Florida next and a gentleman by the name of Adnan Cartwright (he runs the Florida Server Group) and Alex Funkhouser got involved. And then as they got involved in South Florida, when we go to run other events to other cities, they’re also involved in helping organize that event. So we’ve kind of built this group up. So now that we’ve got maybe a group of five people that are core members or part of our organizing committee. So that when we start an event in the next city we keep adding expertise on that. And I think, you know, as you do one in one city one year you kind of build up your local leaders a little bit and they’re able to run it the following years and things. So it’s a lot of it I think is kind of coaching and mentoring people, right? And then you kind of train the trainer and they go off and they train other people. So I think it’s something where you had to kind of light a fire to get it started. It’s not that I don’t think people didn’t want to do it. I think they didn’t know how to do it and they didn’t have the support about how to do it. So let’s do that; let’s provide people a blueprint about how to run these events, provide them the support, help them find sponsors, and then just really kind of coach them about all the things they need to know to run these types of events which, you know, it’s a lot of work to put these together. You know, you’ve got to find sponsors, you’ve got to find venues, you’ve got to try to round up speakers for a free event where there’s really no money to pay for these types of things. And those are the types of things we try to help people out with.

  18. Ryan 00:08:25

    Cool. That’s awesome. Like, that’s a great thing for people to hear, kind of, whatever field that they’re in, right? Like, there’s this thing; don’t just assume it’s not happening because it can’t or that it shouldn’t or that someone’s tried. Because I think I oftentimes think that. I figure, look, everything out there someone’s tried and if it’s not happening right now that probably means somebody just couldn’t make it work.

  19. Chad 00:08:45

    Yeah. Yeah. But I think it’s just the support system’s not being there. And I think, you know, he goes back to, from a developer aspect, they’ve had these, you know, very strong usergroups that have been their support system so that when they do these once-a-year events they’re kind of just building on that, right? So they’re taking the concept of maybe their monthly meeting but just multiplying it by 100 and making it much bigger. But for the IT pro side because we didn’t have (I think we still don’t have) as strong of a usergroup community as, say, on the developer side, we’ve kind of had to maybe skip that step a little bit, right? And help people run these larger events because they don’t have the usergroup community so much.

  20. Ryan 00:09:28

    Now is that something that you’re working on or planning on working on kind of evolving a little bit too, like, in the monthly meeting space or no?

  21. Chad 00:09:37

    I think that’s harder to do and that’s something that’s, you know, it’s really something that you look at, like, any usergroup and it’s really, like, one person that kind of carries it, right? It’s one person that decides, “You know, I really like Exchange and I want to meet about Exchange and talk to other people that know about Exchange and trade ideas about it.” So that’s harder to do, I think, on an ongoing basis than, say, a once-a-year event. At least to me it seems like it’s harder to do. Because that’s something where it’s really a much more individual basis, I guess. So I don’t know what can be done there. I know some things that help a little bit is, you know, I’m also a Microsoft PowerShell MVP. And one of the things I really like about PowerShell is that it’s a unifying technology that I can talk to Exchange folks or SharePoint folks or DBA folks and we can kind of all speak the same language. And before you really didn’t have that. So if I was meeting with IT pros that were specialized in different technologies there wasn’t one thing we could talk about. So I think that’s one thing that’s kind of cool is if you have something that’s a little bit more unifying like PowerShell you can form those groups. And we’ve got a Tampa PowerShell usergroup and, you know, there’s been efforts to try to start more usergroups in different cities around that technology. So that’s one thing that could be done, I guess. You know, I don’t know. And I think it’s just really hard to get usergroups formed. I don’t know. What’s been your experience with it? Do you run any?

  22. Ryan 00:11:03

    Yeah. Actually for just under three years I’ve been running a design-centric usergroup via Meetup and Facebook is kind of where I post to it. And it’s weird; I think I kind of have a similar thing in my industry that you do in that it seems hard to get designers to get out there and play. So I started a design-centric group and I’ve got, I would say, a big majority of who comes is developers actually. And I think some of them are definitely wanting to kind of play, you know, on the other side of the fence a little bit and then there’s some that just want to learn, right, and soak it up which is tough because then I have plenty of people who say, “I’m just here to learn. I’m not here to present,” and that’s the hard part. Like, how do you come up with someone who wants to talk about a topic every month? It’s a scheduling challenge to be sure.

  23. Chad 00:11:52

    Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s something that a lot of usergroups deal with too. I mean, there’s just -- you’ve got folks that want to attend and you’ve got folks that will actually want to step up and actually present some of the content too. And that’s, yeah, that’s the challenge, man.

  24. Ryan 00:12:06

    And I think it’s hard to even just empathize with, like, that person who says, “I’m an attendee, not, like, content creator,” right? If you are someone who is making one of these things, you’re like, “Wait, but there’s no difference,” right? Like, we’ve created a platform that you don’t need any badges, you don’t need any credentials. All you need to do is get up there and say something, man. Just do it, right?

  25. Chad 00:12:29

    Yeah. It should be something that you would think that a lot of folks would have an easier time because, you know, it’s a small group of people and you’re going to be talking about something that you know a lot about. It’s something that you work with every day. So, yeah, that’s something I haven’t understood fully either. I’ve been fortunate. You know, I think you end up getting, like, a core group of people within a usergroup that are willing to step up and do presentations.

  26. Ryan 00:12:50


  27. Chad 00:12:51

    But then there’s always going to be people who are not really comfortable with it and I don’t know if they ever will be.

  28. Ryan 00:12:56

    I feel bad leaning too hard on, like, you know, these four guys, right? Like, all right. You’re March, you’re April, you’re May. Let’s make this thing happen.

  29. Chad 00:13:06

    Right. Right. But that sounds like, you know, your typical usergroup though, really. Because, I mean, I think you’re really relying on your members to drive it. I think that it’s difficult to try to get people outside your group to come in and do presentations and so you’ve got to really rely on your members to drive it.

  30. Ryan 00:13:25

    Well, you really have to because whenever you start bringing outsiders, not always, but a lot of times, like, you’ve got big culture problems there too, right? Like, “Why does this person who never wants to attend a meeting want to present at it? Probably because they’re pitching.”

  31. Chad 00:13:40

    Yeah. Yeah. That’s true.

  32. Ryan 00:13:42

    So it’s awesome to get someone who does show up. Like, that’s when I usually feel less nervous about what’s about to happen. Like, they understand the culture; they know what everybody wants. But you almost need to invoke some sort of Fight Club rule because I think people fall into this kind of spectator role. And if you can get them to talk earlier it seems like they’re more likely to do it because their perception of the whole group is different, right? Like, “This is a thing I participate in,” not just, like, “This is this thing that I like to go to and listen to.”

  33. Chad 00:14:11

    Yeah. I’d agree with you there too. Yeah.

  34. Ryan 00:14:14

    So here’s the big thing for you for this annual thing. How do you convince people at this because it’s even bigger, right? Because, like, a small usergroup there’s, like, five guys, right? Like, how do you convince somebody to, you know, maybe drive an hour to present in front of, like, 80 people. Or, like, is that a thing that you find personalities that are prone to it or is that a thing that you’ve come up with some sort of way to pitch the opportunity?

  35. Chad 00:14:40

    Typically, the folks that do the larger presentations are people that already have presented at the usergroup level and then they want to kind of stretch themselves. And they enjoy, you know, I think they enjoy just like you do. I think you enjoy kind of showing people or teaching people how to do something. It’s fun for them. You know, and you end up building a list of potential speakers up and then each event you kind of send out your call to speakers and ask people if they’re willing to devote their time to do it. The people that you end up finding, like, a core group of people that if, you know, I know people that if I ask them, “Hey, we’ve got an event in a couple of months. Would you be willing to come up here and drive an hour or an hour-and-a-half or whatever to do this?” And they’ll raise their hands to do it. And that’s what’s great about it is you find a core group of passionate people and they don’t really mind doing that type of work. I also think, you know, you find -- you know, we get a lot of our focus on technology is on Microsoft technology. We do get people speaking about non-Microsoft technology. And, you know, a lot of the Microsoft folks have been willing to come in and do pitch presentations on different aspects of things. And they’re not people that are typically in that -- what you find at Microsoft, you’ve got folks that are in the Technical Evangelist roles and they do that full-time, but you have people that are also in some of the support roles that they’re stepping outside of doing just the support roles and wanting to also present on some technology that they have a lot of depth to. We had several presentations on System Center, which is on the IT pro side on Microsoft. System Center: it’s a very involved product. I mean, it’s a very rich product that does a lot of things but it requires people that really know that. And those types of presentations are popular with IT pros and we had some folks that knew that that work for Microsoft and did some of those presentations for us at the Sarasota IT Pro Camp and looks like we might get some of them doing some presentations again for us in Jacksonville on June 16th.

  36. Ryan 00:16:39

    Cool. Not being familiar with how this works, what kind of presentation does that turn into? Is that like someone is setting up, letting you watch? Is there, like, a theory behind it that they go into and say, “Here are better approaches,” or, “Here’s things that you should be thinking about when you come up with your own solution.” Like, how’s that work?

  37. Chad 00:16:56

    You know, it can kind of run the gamut. I mean, just like any other, I think, you know, IT Code Camp or Bar Camp or whatever. People will kind of specialize in certain things and talk about different aspects of a technology. And the presentation may all be on tips and tricks on managing, like, for example, System Center. Or it may walk through a very basic setup. So it can kind of run the gamut, I guess, and it just depends on what the topic is people are interested in presenting on. Like, I’ll do some presentations on PowerShell, but a lot of times when I work with PowerShell I’ll kind of narrow in on niche topic about how to store and collect data into (using PowerShell and storing it in) databases or files and things. So I’ll kind of narrow in on that niche topic of how to storing PowerShell output, which is a narrow subject than just, you know, hey, PowerShell 101. So you kind of see the gamut, I guess.

  38. Ryan 00:17:50

    That’s good. Because I think that, at least with me, when I see some of the tools it’s, like, “Oh, so this is, wait, how to use this thing that you bought?” Like, because it’s even hard if you don’t understand what it is, right? Like, it’s hard to understand how that is going to be framed that is interesting, right? Like, that kind of thing. Is that a problem that I just see because, like, I’m kind of this outsider or is that also something that you generally have to kind of overcome?

  39. Chad 00:18:19

    Well, you know, if I kind of relate this to terms like from a developer aspect, I mean, if you have folks that work, for example, with SharePoint they already are using the product and they’re probably looking at more about getting some tips and tricks about how to do some niche topic within that technology, right? And the same thing from a developer aspect. I mean, you’re not going to have a general presentation on .NET, but you might have a more narrow presentation on, I don’t know, MVC or whatever you guys call that, right? So, you know, and then on the IT pro side, when people start working with a particular technology they’re interested in getting a little bit more depth on it, but then at the same time you’ve got, I guess, kind of 101 topics which would go over about here’s what this is and this is what you use it for. Those are popular too, you know. 101 topics are always a very popular thing at our events. And, you know, what we try to do is we kind of have a mixture, you know. We’ll have a lot of 101 topics in the morning to try to give an overview of something but then try to reserve some more in-depth talks in the afternoon for different things.

  40. Ryan 00:19:27

    You know, that really drives home the point of why you need an event that specializes because I think, a lot of times, if there are topics, like, at a Code Camp about something that isn’t development you almost have to be 101 because you have to assume that most people have never touched this before, right? And it’s the tragedy of why, like, a lot of pilots are usually the worst episode ever, right? You’ve got to introduce characters, you know, there’s so much backstory. Come on, we just want to get into episode five. Let’s just skip episode four and assume that the universe exists.

  41. Chad 00:19:59

    Right. Right. Well, I mean, I guess to a certain extent. But you think about, like, for example, on SQL Server. If you were talking about T-SQL you probably wouldn’t go into a talk about this is a SELECT or a UPDATE, DELETE. You don’t tend to see those as much anymore because you assume people have a base knowledge of that. And you may go into a more advanced talk about, you know, about something related to SQL. So, you know, I guess you get kind of a mixture there. And I think on certain technologies there is a need for some of the 101 talks about just what it is and what it does, but at the same token if people have been working with that technology they’re interested in looking at something more, I guess.

  42. Ryan 00:20:42

    It is kind of weird to see, like, “Why are you going all over? Why are you working so hard? Like, that’s too much driving for you. Just focus on your city.” But I think that that’s pretty cool. You’ve got this whole IT pro Johnny Appleseed thing going on.

  43. Chad 00:20:55

    Yeah. Yeah. We’ll see how well it goes. You know, from what I’ve heard, Microsoft really likes it. So Blain has been kind of preaching IT Pro Camp to his Technical Evangelist peers and they really want to try to expand this even further. So they’ve been a big, big help, you know, in supporting us from -- with Blain helping do the organization, you know, getting some funding, they put up some money for each one of the events, and then also rounding up some speakers for it. So they’ve been a big help. But, you know, at the same time though, we’re open to having non-Microsoft technologies discussed. We had one of the guys talking about MAC and the enterprise at a couple of events and that was a very popular event because if you think about it from an IT pro side, you know, at my company all the financial advisors love using iPads. You’ve got to think about it from a, you know, a business side, how do you integrate that into your environment. So talking about some of the non-Microsoft stuff is something I’d like to see even more of really.

  44. Ryan 00:21:53

    So at the event do you give any talks yourself or do you just focus on just making sure that everything works?

  45. Chad 00:22:00

    You know, it all depends. I try to help with organizing the events a little bit. And it just depends on the city. Like in Tampa I’ll help organize that event, but South Florida’s very well-done with Adnan Cartwright and Alex Funkhouser, they pretty much -- they run that event. And if they need a speaker then I’ll volunteer to speak. If we get more speakers submitting than there are slots then I’ll kind of bow out. And that’s typically what you’ll see with folks that run the Code Camps is that the people doing the organizing won’t typically do a presentation unless there’s a need to fill a gap because you keep quite busy just doing some of the event organizing-type work.

  46. Ryan 00:22:37

    That’s good. Yeah. No, I do the same thing with my usergroup too. I’ve spoke very few times. And it’s not because I don’t want to. And then you have to every now and then because you have to set an -- well, not, like, set an example but, like, the idea of, like, “No, no, I’m chipping in. I’m just trying to make sure it’s not ’The Ryan Show’.”

  47. Chad 00:22:53

    Right. Right. Yeah. You do -- in a usergroup, you do worry about that too; about just doing presentation after presentation, month after month and you do worry about getting some variety of speakers and things like that. I’m with you there.

  48. Ryan 00:23:06

    It’s tough. It’s tough to balance and I think it’s funny because a lot of times it’ll come off like, you know, you’re trying to pitch people on talking like, “Come on. It’s a great opportunity. I don’t understand why you’re not doing it.” It’s like, “Are you speaking?” “Well, no, no, no. But, I mean, I’m giving you the platform to speak, right?” I’m skeptical.

  49. Chad 00:23:25

    Yeah. So, you know, I guess I could mention a few things about some future dates we have coming up. So if you go to, that’s our main site. What we’ve done is that each city gets their own subfolder site, I guess you could say. So there’s, /SouthFlorida, etc… And we’ve run four events. We’ve run Tampa, South Florida, Orlando, and Sarasota. But then we have another five events planned for the rest of 2012 and the dates are posted on Our next one coming up is June 16th in Jacksonville. It’ll be our first year doing it in Jacksonville.

  50. Ryan 00:24:03

    Very cool. Expanding.

  51. Chad 00:24:06

    Yeah. Well, we’re doing Florida first. It’s kind of funny in a way that a lot of these ideas seem to originate in Florida. And I don’t know why that is. Like, you look at, like, SQL Saturday. That idea kind of, the seed for that, started in Florida. You know, it’s kind of funny to see that. Because, you know, you talk to folks that go to usergroups in larger cities like New York or Boston and some of their usergroups get larger attendance on a monthly basis than, say, an entire Code Camp or something for an event in Florida, but yet these things kind of originate out of Florida. So we’re starting in Florida with some of these things and we’re going back and we’re doing our second year in South Florida on July 21st. Tampa’s going to circle around again on September 22nd. And then we’re also going to do one of our first non-Florida events; we’ve got Jackson, Mississippi planned for August 25th. I have actually never been to Mississippi so this will be a fun excursion, I guess. And Pensacola on the 20th of October. So that’s also a first-year event there.

  52. Ryan 00:25:12

    Awesome. And we’ll definitely link to IT Pro Camp in the show notes so everybody can go check that out. It’s great to hear about things that are kind of starting in Florida because, I mean, I know plenty of people who are trying to do community-building down here and trying to make, you know, Florida as a whole come to people’s mind when they think of technology more than it does. And there’s plenty of people working really hard and it’s a shame that, you know, it isn’t seen as, like, one of the places to go, right? It’s still California, Boston -- well, specifically, San Francisco, New York now, Chicago maybe. Like, you know what I mean? It’s not quite, like, why are we not there yet? And there’s huge stuff. Especially, like, not to make it about South Florida but, I mean, even, like, with Miami; it’s, like, that international hub. Like, how does it not have this huge leg up in general? But it should.

  53. Chad 00:25:59

    Yeah. I think I was reading an article a few years ago and Florida (the state of Florida) is, like, the fourth largest IT employer or something. But I think the weird thing about Florida is there’s no real, like, you know, Triad area or, you know, Silicon Valley area where we’re all kind of concentrated in small areas. It’s like we’re just kind of dispersed around the city -- around the state, rather.

  54. Ryan 00:26:19


  55. Chad 00:26:20

    And that’s what’s kind of different about it, I guess. But you wonder if that helps breed these ideas of running, you know, more of the Code Camps and IT Pro Camps and SQL Saturdays and SharePoint Saturdays and stuff. Because we’ve got this kind of spread out from the state of Florida techno-community, maybe that’s what helps start some of these ideas; that we don’t have one central place.

  56. Ryan 00:26:47

    Yeah. That distributed nature might actually be helpful. Because I think it’s interesting to see how many people, you know, from South Florida know people that live in Tampa and Orlando that work in their field, right? And there’s still somehow a feeling of hometown pride and they’re from, you know, very far away, right? It’s not, like, it’s not necessarily a city thing. There is definitely, like, a state-wide, like, we need to kind of make this thing work, right, which I think is very optimistic, right?

  57. Chad 00:27:12

    Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

  58. Ryan 00:27:14

    Awesome. Well, Chad, I hope everybody goes and checks out IT Pro Camp whether or not they even do a little bit of development or design, right, because we need cross-pollination. And thank you for taking the time to speak with me. This has been a lot of fun.

  59. Chad 00:27:29

    All right. Thank you, Ryan.